Some Thoughts on Election

Recently there was a post on the Rebelution blog that sparked some very heated debate about several theological concepts. One of the was the doctrine of election. Since I haven't posted anything deep or "thinky" in a long time, I thought I'd share with ya'll a little bit about what's been on my mind. I'm going to share some of the comments in this debate.
So, without further ado...

David Daniel said:
"...and I don't think God picks and chooses who to save, or that humans have nothing whatsoever to do with their own salvation."

I said:

"...consider this passage from Romans:
" '...when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but becasue of His call - she was told "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated."
"'What shall we say then? Is there in justice on God's part? By no means! For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends on neither human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So then he has mercy on whoever he wills, and hardens whoever he wills." - Romans 9:10-18
"Seems like pretty harsh stuff. Look at it this way. No one is just an average, morally "nuetral" being. No one, on their own, 'seeks' God. Since the fall we are all, by nature, 'children of wrath' - hating God and running from him. But God, in his mysterious mercy and divine wisdom, chose to reach out his hand and snatch one back. And another. And another.
"We just have to remember 'Lord, your ways are not our ways! Your thoughts are not my thoughts!' We can never fully understand the 'why.' And I am certainly not saying I understand it fully - whew! Really, these concepts make my brain blow fuses. But I DO know that God is indescribably wiser than us. So we can have peace knowing that he knows what he is doing..."

Melissa said:

"Elisabeth, I hope I don't offend you or anything, because that is certainly not my intention, but what you said about God picking and choosing whom to save really bothered me. I do not believe God does that. Consider these passages of scripture:
"'John 3:16-18 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover beleiveth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent his son into the world not to condemn the world; but that the world might be saved through him. He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he who believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.'
"'2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.' ... (she offers more verses...)
"These verses clearly show that salvation is offered freely to ALL, not just ones that God picks out. It's for every single person! But we do have to choose to accept the free gift of salvation, and believe in Jesus Christ. I hope the next few verses clarify this point:
"'John 6:37 - All the Father hath given me shall come to me; and him that come to me I will in no wise cast out.' ... I just really can't believe that our loving God would actually choose someone to be lost. That's awful! And if it were true, then we could have no assurance of our salvation because we wouldn't know if God had chosen us to be saved or not...."

I said:

"...you have not offended me, and I do certainly see your point. ... But I believe God has predestined some to save. These are the ones who are able to believe. NO ONE who believes will ever be cast away, but they believe only because the Holy Spirit has revealed himself to them, not on their own accord. Consider this passage from Ephesians:
"'And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, made us alive together in Christ - by grace you have been saved - and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasureable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing; it is a gift from God, not a result of works so that no man may boast.'
"Do you see what I mean? It is impossible for us to have faith unless God softens our hearts. Those whom he has not chosen would not want to come to him anyway. Their hearts are dead in sin and they do not desire God. We can have peace in our salvation knowing that we have faith because God has chosen us - we would not believe otherwise..."

Melissa said:

"...He's calling everyone! He's calling the whole world. Do you really think it would be fair of God to let someone be lost without giving them the opportunity to choose salvation? ... would it be fair of God to punsih someone with eternal death simply because he had not 'called' them and they could not believe? I don't think it would be fair of God to call someone and not others. He calls everyone; he gives everyone a chance to choose..."

Emma said:

"...Yes, God offers salvation to people freely, but it is ultimatly he who softens or hardens their hearts. God is always in control, and everything moves by his sovereign plan, not by the independant choice by any individual person. If it was up to any person at any given moment whether or not they would accept Jesus or not, then really, God would not be in control. It is only by his mercy that any of us are saved at all, whether we call it injustice or not. God's plan is greater than anything we can comprehend!"

Katie said:

"...Melissa, there was something you said that interested me very much. You said in the beginning of your above paragraph that 'It's only by the work of the Holy spirit that we are able to see our sinful condition,' And that is correct; I agree wholeheartedly. But after that you begin to say that Jesus wants ALL of us to come to him. Wait a minute, you've lost me here.This is important...
"If Jesus wants everyone to come to him, AND he shows people their sin, WHY DOESN'T HE JUST SHOW EVERYONE THEIR SIN? Wouldn't that make it pretty simple?
"...So the only conclusion I can come up with is that he chooses some to reveal himself to. Otherwise, if he's soveriegn, he'd just reveal himself to everyone, right? It can't be both...either God is sovereign, or he is not. Either he chooses us from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) or he just waits for people to choose him.
"And here's the beatiful part of all this: Knowing God chooses his children, that he thought of you before you were even concieved and named you, that he loved you, that he picked YOU when he could have picked anyone; doesn't that make you feel special? And it should be humbling as well...That God would choose that which is lowly to become his child - amazing! Melissa, you mentioned several times the word 'fair' in your recent comments. What is fair? Hmmm. Well, to me, fair is that we all go to Hell. I mean, that's what we deserve, isn't it? We KILLED Jesus, and every time we sin we crucify him again. So the fair thing is for all humankind to go to Hell...
"But no. We're all, as a big group (humankind) heading to Hell (running there a thousand miles an hour, actually) and he stops some, gives them a GIFT, the gift of grace. Those who go to Hell are only getting what they deserve. I know that sounds heartless (and believe me, I don't want anyone to go to Hell any more than you do!) but its true! Would you say its not fair if a theif goes to prison? We're all thieves that deserve prison (we're actually murderers) and if God wants to place his pardon on some, what is that to the others? They won't care, or even long for God. God will never place a longing for himself in someones heart and then say 'Nope, didn't choose you.'
"Those who go to Hell have no regrets. They didn't know another way because God didn't reveal it to them! And that is God's soveriegnty at work in this world...And it should make you that more appriciative and adoring of you mighty savior. He'll do anything to bring you closer, and this is just one of the many things he does, he lets us know in his Word (Ephesians 1, Romans 9, Matthew 11:27 and many more places) that he chooses his people, and that causes gratitude, and that causes praise."